On June 26th, 1999, filmmaker Jim Jarmusch visited George Eastman House to present his most recent film, Year of the Horse (1997), a documentary and concert film about Neil Young and Crazy Horse. In this conversation with the audience after the screening, Jarmusch discusses his experience on the film, and touches on a variety of other subjects, like working with actor Roberto Benignini and the musician Ol’ Dirty Bastard. He also reveals the secret wellspring for his creative ideas. We present this interview in support of our mini retrospective on Jarmusch, unspooling at the Dryden Theatre on select dates in February.

JJ – Jim Jarmusch
PCU – Paolo Cherchi-Usai, moderator
AM – Audience member

JJ: Year of the Horse is a film from a few years ago that was actually instigated by Neil Young. I’ve been a big fan of his music, particularly with the band Crazy Horse. So, after I worked with Neil, he did the score for my film Dead Man, and then I made a video for Crazy Horse, that was shot mostly using Super 8 cameras, and a few months after that Neil called me up and said, “Why don’t we make a longer film that looks like that.” So, within a week or two I was out on the road with Neil and Crazy Horse. And the result was The Year of the Horse… It’s not exactly a documentary, it’s not exactly a concert film. It’s, I don’t know what it is.

It’s shot on Super 8, on 16 mil, and there’s a little bit on video, the interview sequences. And then it was all bumped up to 35, blown up. So, it’s got a very raw kind of look that I think is appropriate to the music they make.

Umm, are there any questions?

AM: Which camera did you shoot? Were you on the stage?

JJ: I was on the stage, usually on this side of the stage. Yeah, but we switched around somewhat… There were three 16 cameras in the house and the stuff we shot outside of Seattle, in Washington. There were two 16 cameras in the house.

AM: How’d you pick the animation piece?

JJ: Actually, we didn’t make it. It was from my editor that I work with, Jay Rabinowitz – his kid is a huge fan of Shining Time Station. And, so, there was animated piece on that show that Jay brought in and said he wanted to work into the film. So, we did.

AM: We know what stock this was shot on, and I’m curious what the sound was recorded on.

JJ: Yeah, the music is recorded by Neil’s guy that records all of his live stuff. So, it was recorded on, and I don’t even remember, but I guess six track stereo.

AM: Is there a soundtrack?

JJ: No, there isn’t a soundtrack. But, there is a record that was made called Year of the Horse that is from the same tour and all from live concerts. But, none of the same songs are the same exact versions that we used in the film. But, it was strange, because when I was editing the film I would call Neil up and ask him, “Look, these are songs I’m proposing to use. What do you think?” And he would just say, “Well, whatever you think. You choose the songs.” So, he didn’t really want to be involved in what performances I chose. But then, when he made the record, he chose some of these songs, but all from different performances. So, there is kind of a soundtrack.

AM: Was Pancho happy in the end?

JJ: I don’t know if Pancho’s ever happy… Yeah, Pancho I got along really well. You probably don’t believe me but the one time that I knew Pancho, that I was close to Pancho, I was standing off stage and I had a lit cigarette in my mouth, and as they went on stage, he snatched the cigarette out of my mouth and put it in his mouth and gave me the finger. And then I knew, “Wow, I’m down with Pancho,” you know? So, he’s really a great and amazing person. And what I really respect is that he says what he thinks. And I agree, actually, with what he says, or it wouldn’t be in the film. I mean, you can’t try to capture that.

My favorite rock and roll movies that are real documents are probably Don’t Look Back, the Pennebaker film about Dylan, and a film that Robert Frank made called Cocksucker Blues about The Stones on tour in ’72. And these films capture the musical artists at very pivotal times in their career history. And for me to make a film, or anyone, to make a film like that about Neil and Crazy Horse, you would probably have to have been around when they were playing music from their record, Tonight’s the Night which the record company wouldn’t release until two years after it was made. They were playing in small clubs, people were walking out, there’d be fifteen people at the end of the gig, very upset that Neil wasn’t playing his hit records. You probably could have gotten a really great film out of something like that , but I didn’t have that chance. I wasn’t there then and there was no intention like, “We’re going to make a searing insight into Neil Young and Crazy Horse.” Instead it was a very offhand project that was proposed to me by Neil and I was really – because I’m a fan of him and Crazy Horse – I was really happy to have a chance to try and make something out of the footage. But I know it’d be very pretentious of me to say, “This is a great documentary, or even, concert film.” It’s just… It is what it is. And, so, because they have such longevity, if that comes through in the film then there’s something in there about them. But, it’s not as deep or insightful as other real documents about musicians that I really like.

AM: I noticed that a lot of your shots came together to fit the music…

JJ: Well we only did that on the last song really, “Like A Hurricane“.

AM: Was this a conscious decision?

JJ: No, it wasn’t conscious, maybe sort of intuitive. And, for me, music is always the most inspiring form for me, and I just think music is so pure. And when I get depressed and, sort of down, on the way humans treat each other on this planet, I try to think about how much music means to people. And if you think, in any culture at any time, people are playing or listening to music. And people listen to music in their car, and they listen to music at home. Humans love music, you know. And that makes me feel, sometimes, better about being a human. Because it’s something that does knit us together, and it is something very strong, and it doesn’t have to have language to move you, and it doesn’t have to be from your culture. So, I’m very sensitive to music. I get a lot of inspiration from music. And I think that there’s a very large part of filmmaking that is very musical because, like a piece of music, a film passes before your eyes and ears in its own rhythm and time. It’s not like a painting or a book where you can stop, and read it again, or look at a different part. You have to follow its flow. So, there’s a connection in filmmaking to music that’s very important to me. But, I don’t think I answered your question at all.

AM: Along those same lines, when I was coming here tonight I wasn’t sure if I was preparing myself to see a Jim Jarmusch film or a Neil Young film. And I like both, I’ve seen all of your films, or at least five or six of them, I like Neil Young, of course. And I was curious with the audience whether it was going to be Neil Young people, Jim Jarmusch people, whatever. So, I guess my question goes back to, with you and Neil working together, do you think Neil was as flattered to be working with a filmmaker like you as you were flattered by working with a musician like Neil?

JJ: Gee, put me on the spot, why don’t you?

JJ: I know that I can honestly say that Neil respects me and he certainly knows that I respect him. And he’s treated me with great respect when we collaborated on Dead Man, and also when I made a video for Crazy Horse he gave me complete – he just said, “look, you know what you’re doing. You do it.” And he did the same with this film. So, I know there’s mutual respect there, but beyond that I’m not quite sure how to answer that. He deserves a lot more respect from me than me from him, in my opinion.

AM: What was his reaction to the film?

JJ: He liked the film a lot. I think he was very happy that Crazy Horse got some respect too, because, you know, they’re a really great rock group and a lot of people don’t even know their names, you know. Because Neil overshadows them in his popularity, and in the fact that he does a lot of projects without them. So, when Neil’s out on tour by himself, they’re out in the San Fernando valley putting up drywall, or whatever. And so, he was happy that the film gave them respect too and was some kind of half assed portrait of their connection to each other. I think he likes it. He was happy with it.

AM: Which of Neil’s films have you seen?

JJ: I’ve seen Human Highway and Journey Through the Past.

AM: What is your Neil video like compared to the rest?

JJ: You’d have to ask a film critic that… Different.

AM: Had you seen Neil in concert before doing this movie?

JJ: Yeah, I had. I think I’d seen Neil four or five times before.

AM: Was the Neil Young style of music what you grew up with and most influenced you growing up?

JJ: No, but I sort of go back to, like, the punk rock era. And I used to argue a lot when we were in our early twenties and I spent a lot of time at CBGB’s and I have a lot of friends still that are musicians – from The Ramones to Debbie Harry. And I remember arguing, not with those people particularly, but I used to argue about Neil Young. Because I thought Tonight’s the Night was an incredible record and had a lot of connection, in some ways to certain things you can never generalize. I mean, the whole thing, like, punk rock, is just some thing time magazine or something made up. It was like, a group of some kind of subculture. But, I used to argue, and there was a hardcore thing about, like, “Yeah, those are hippies. That’s hippie music, that’s…” And it was healthy to reject that. But, it’s not healthy to reject things that could be incredibly valuable, or that could be incredibly close to where you’re at, it could be a strength. So, even back then, in the late ’70s I remember defending, vehemently so, Neil Young’s work with Crazy Horse.

AM: Was working on this film the first time you actually met Neil Young?

JJ: Yeah, I never met him until, actually, while we were shooting Dead Man. While I was writing Dead Man my dream was to have Neil do the music, but, I didn’t know him, you know. So, then they were playing, Crazy Horse, in Sedona, Arizona and we were shooting and we had a day off when they had a gig there. So, we got tickets for our crew, and I’d been trying to reach Neil before that, but with no success. And I did get to meet him backstage, he was hanging outside of his tour bus, and I introduced myself and gave him a script, and told him about the film, and he probably threw the script away, and said, “I don’t plan anything in advance, but it’s real nice to meet you.” And then I sent him a cassette, a video of the film, in an early stage, and he called me back within, like, two days and said, “Hey, I saw your film I want to do the score.” So, it did happen magically somehow. But I never met him until then.

AM: Got any tobacco?

JJ: Yes, I do actually. [The Audience Laughs] It’s an inside joke…

AM: You’ve worked with many actors, but, specifically, I was wondering if you keep in touch with Roberto Benigni, and I was also wondering how you felt about his Life is Beautiful.

JJ: Yeah, I stay, always, in contact with Roberto. And he was in and out of New York on his way back and forth through L.A. and wherever, so, I saw him each time. Nothing that Roberto does would surprise me. So, I was not surprised by anything, you know. Because everything he does is surprising.

So, it’s kind of contradictory, but that’s Roberto. And I loved his film, because I know him and I love his heart and where things come from. And I thought, I know the intention of his film was from a place very sincere, loving, beautiful place. If I could get out of my own subjectivity and be more objective I might have some problems with his film, and I might, there are certain things that I would question about its setting. And, I don’t know, I was trying to imagine, say you took a story about a character that was a Native American child being taken on the Trail Of Tears and, could you make a comedy out of that in some way? I’m not sure how you could. I don’t know, but it’s too complicated for me because I cannot separate the Roberto I know from the work that I see. So, I can’t critique his film. I liked his film, but I know where it comes from in him. So, I thought it was a very loving, beautiful film. I did have some problem with the end, I thought it was a little… the kid wins the tank, you know. There are a few things, filmmaking-wise, I could critique, but I like the film and I know what he meant it to be, and it reached a lot of people in a beautiful way.

AM: Were you ever in a recording band or did you ever use your own music for a film?

JJ: Stupidly, no. But I’m half deaf from growing up in front of amplifiers anyway.

AM: How much of Year of the Horse is comprised of clips from years past?

JJ: …Partly. Neil gave me access to footage from ‘76 and ‘86, and this was shot in ‘96. So, I wove in those. He let me look at a lot of footage and said, “If there’s anything in here you want to use.” So, I selectively used some of it, but I really wanted to keep it mostly in the present. But, I wanted to have some things reflected back. But, I’ll tell you, they are still having the same exact arguments now.

JJ: I’m serious, I saw that same argument. Over the same song! The same vocal part!
[The Audience Laughs] Like, Billy Talbot is something else, you know. I mean, I love that guy, but he’s still arguing about the same things with Neil.

AM: Do you know why [inaudible song title] was never recorded?

JJ: No, I don’t. [The Audience Laughs] What I want to know is why On the Beach isn’t on CD, which is one of my favorites, but…

[One Audience Person Claps Loudly]

JJ: I have it on vinyl, but it sounds like someone served pizza on it, and spilled beer on it, which, probably they have.

AM: That’s the way it should sound.

JJ: Yeah, it sounds pretty good.

AM: Where did you shoot the interview, and does Neil Young take his father on tour?

JJ: We shot the interviews backstage in a venue in Dublin. And I shot them there because I thought it was out last gig, and I kept threatening the band that I was going to interrogate them, and it was sort of my last chance. Although I didn’t know that I would go outside of Seattle and film more. But, it was the last leg of the European tour that I was with them. So, I found that room backstage that I thought looked interesting for an interrogation room and hauled them in there one by one. And Neil’s father was there on vacation in Ireland, just traveling. So, he happened to be there. So, I dragged his ass in there too! [The Audience Laughs] But, he’s great, Neil’s father is very known in Canada as a sports writer and a novelist. And sometimes if you go in Canada, sometimes people say to Neil, “Oh yeah, you’re Scott’s kid, right?” And they know Scott more than Neil.

AM: What’s your next project?
JJ: Well, I just finished a new film called Ghost Dog: Way of the Samurai. Seriously, I’m not joking! [The Audience Laughs] And it was premiered at Cannes, and I think it’s going to be released in the states, probably, early next year, if not this fall. And I would love to bring it up here and have some kind of premiere up here.
[The Audience Claps Loudly]

JJ: I can’t say for sure, but Paolo and I have been talking about doing something special here, if we can.

AM: Are your films officially included in the George Eastman film library now?

JJ: No, they’re not, but they are being stored thanks to Paolo’s help. They are getting saved.

PCU: Who are the musicians on that film?

JJ: For?

PCU: For the new film.

JJ: Oh, my new film. The score was done by RZA from the Wu-Tang Clan, in New York. And he did a beautiful score.

PCU: You can bring him too.

JJ: I don’t know. [The Audience Laughs] That might be problematic.

But, they’re really great and RZA‘s a really brilliant and great musician. It was also a dream come true because when I was writing this film, Ghost Dog, what I was listening to was a lot of hip hop stuff, and I’ve been a fan of the Wu-Tang since I’ve known of them. And I luckily knew people who knew RZA and who got to him, and he did the score. He’s amazing. He went with us to Cannes, too, to premiere the film.

AM: When will this film we just saw be released publicly? Will it come out?

JJ: I hope so, but Neil owns this film. He asked me to make the film, so his company produced it. And one never knows what the hell Neil’s going to do with stuff.

JJ: I mean, he’s got archived stuff from, oh man, his whole career. Incredible stuff, demo recordings from pre Buffalo Springfield and even recordings of him playing with Rick James before he even left Toronto. Incredible stuff. So, I don’t know, I keep asking Neil why that isn’t made available.

AM: Was Neil at all nervous about shooting and putting out a more avant-garde concert video like this?

JJ: He seemed to have no trepidation whatsoever. He was just like, you know, “Yeah”.

AM: There are many people who like to say that Neil will never release all of his music himself and that it’s just not going to get put out there, would you believe that?

JJ: No, I wouldn’t believe that… Because I’ve been in his studio, in his ranch, with him and he’s working endlessly on putting out all of his recorded material. Like, he’s definitely going to do it, but he’s always got some other project. He has a new album now, that’s finished, that he’s going to release. He’s always got so many things going on that I know he’ll do it, but it’s never the priority because he knows it exists as a body of work. And I’ve been yelling at him for years to get “On the Beach” out, and he did master it, and then he didn’t like the way it was mastered and, so, it didn’t come out, it didn’t get re-released. So, I don’t think it will be soon, but it will. Eventually, all of his stuff will come out.

AM: I’d love to know where your ideas come from, but, that’s like asking you how you got to be as tall as you are. I guess I would want to know…

JJ: I drank a lot of milk. [The Audience Laughs]

AM: What were the inspirations that caused you to be a writer and a filmmaker? Are there films or filmmakers that, maybe, come to mind?

JJ: That’s an impossible question because, to me, I can say that I really am inspired by so many things from literature, to music, and films, and people I’ve met, and things I’ve observed, that it’s so vast a kind of thing, you know. It’s such a gift to be a living human being. I keep thinking about the planet Earth and the universe, and its existence is just so brief. And we get this gift of being living creatures for this flash of time that… Well, I’m sounding like a real stoner now!
[The Audience Laughs Uproariously]

JJ: It’s like, “Wow”… But, sincerely, I mean there’s so many incredible thing that you get inspired by. I couldn’t start listing them.

AM: Did you ever want to be anything else, because of your influences, growing up?

JJ: A little bit. I sort of wanted to be a writer, and I was, kind of, a musician for a while. And I feel like I was supposed to be a musician, but I took a detour somehow and became a filmmaker. But, so many things are so inspiring, you know? I wouldn’t know where to begin. It’s not a good answer but… Have you got about five days where I can start listing things that inspire me?

AM: What musical inspirations of yours would you be interested in making a film about?

JJ: Link Ray, Iggy Pop. Old Dirty Bastard maybe… [Tom] Waits. I actually have a film I made that I haven’t finished that I shot years ago. English TV asked me to make a half-hour show on Waits and then, before I started editing it, they told me they weren’t going to give me any money to finish it.

But I have some great stuff of Waits. Incredible stuff I should cut together. But, it wouldn’t be a feature, it’d be, like, a half an hour. Wow, there’s a lot of great musicians, I’m not sure. I did want to make a film about Pygmy musicians in central Africa. I think their music’s incredible. But, I don’t know.

AM: Yeah, I saw you on a Bravo documentary about Lee Marvin and you mentioned some other connection, do you want to explain that further?

JJ: Well, I wanted to make a film, years and years ago, called The Sun Song… Well, it wasn’t going to be called this, but, it was basically going to have Lee Marvin in it and then Tom Waits, and John Lurie, and then another friend named Richard Bose. And all of us look, a little bit, like we could be related to Lee Marvin. [The Audience Laughs] And then Lee died and we started this secret organization called “The Sons of Lee Marvin.” [The Audience Laughs] And, it does exist, this organization, as you saw. I gave John Boorman a card, he’s an honorary member now. So, I love Lee Marvin… He’s a hell of an actor.